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We are working on our Women in Coffee Event at Creative Coffee Week Durban and I thought about this epic chat between two coffee industry legends that was originally published in June 2024 Print Edition. How the time does fly! Much has happened since this interview, but the respect and joy between these two humans is enduring. Enjoy!
Originally published in Coffee Magazine, Issue 48 (Read full edition here)
Words by Abby Berman
Images by Pang Isaac Photography
It’s a Saturday morning and we’re on the way to one of the newest specialty cafes in downtown Cape Town. Hayley and I catch up for a few minutes until we step foot into Hey Stranger. Hayley and I have known each other for quite a few years, but it’s only since relocating to Cape Town a few years ago that our coffee friendship began to blossom into a real friendship. As soon as we are inside, a barista steps out from behind the bar and comes to greet us. Throws a huge hug around Hayley and begins to catch up enthusiastically with her. We’re both not strangers here.
Hayley and Nyasha worked together at Origin Coffee Roasting, where a lot of our industry coffee professionals have moved through on their own coffee journeys. They go way back, so when I see Hayley whip out a little tube of coffee and hand it over to Nyasha, I know what’s about to go down. This is something that just happens with coffee people, coffee friends and ex-colleagues who know each other so well; when you get given some special beans it’s very hard not to share. Hayley has just returned from the Specialty Coffee Expo in Johannesburg and got these special processed beans from Bluebird Coffee Roastery. We eventually take a seat, I have an espresso and Hayley sips on a split single shot Costa Rica cortado, a barista breakfast as she likes to call it. The other shot is with Nyasha behind the bar. After some more catching up, I’m on to my second cup of the day, my usual, a batch brew. Today's is made with a single origin from Father Coffee and it’s a delicious Guatemala. This daily barista breakfast gives Hayley some comfort and strength at the start of each day. And with this special processed Costa Rica in hand and coffee with me, she’s able to start the weekend off well.
We automatically shift into talking about the move within the industry with regards to how coffee has been processed through the years since we both began our careers. Reminiscing about our old school favourites, some washed South Americans and the beautiful floral Ethiopian coffees we first fell in love with. The experimental flavours and methods which Hayley fondly recalls from the weekend prior makes us both chuckle at the extravagant and sometimes outrageous flavours that are coming out of coffee today. Hayley talks about a coffee she once had that tasted and reminded her of cheese, and I can’t help but laugh, thinking about trying to find a cheesy flavour note on the coffee flavour wheel. That coffee, even though it was not the best for Hayley, was very memorable, bringing up another valuable part of coffee we both enjoy; the nostalgia of it all.
I think it’s important to note how we’ve both arrived at this space in our coffee careers through such different experiences; just like the experimental coffees we’re chuckling about. Unlike Hayley, I began by studying coffee at university through anthropological means. Recognising that there were many people who were responsible for the many different parts of the coffee value stream that we often, as consumers, didn't recognise and even understand. By acknowledging this lack of information and understanding I was led to ask the questions, find out more information and be inspired to constantly be in the pursuit of good tasting ethically sourced specialty coffee.
Experimental coffees according to Hayley, are some of the best talking points baristas can use to chat to customers and engage with them on different levels. On the backbone of our experimental coffee conversation, we start discussing the first years of Hayley’s coffee career at Origin. Where she learnt how to make espressos, taste coffee and teach others and share her passion for coffee. Over time she learnt that she needed to stop hiding away from the scary side of not knowing about coffee, how to taste it and identify flavours or how to make the best latte art. For the most part, understanding what you don’t know, and facing questions you aren’t sure of how to answer, is one way of knowing where to begin.
When Hayley began as a trainee barista, she recalls how much confidence she lacked and feels that it hindered her progress to some extent. She started off where most of us have, ‘not being skilled enough in identifying flavour’. She says she “desperately didn’t want people to know”, that she “couldn't really taste the differences between a good espresso and a great espresso. I mean, no one can really taste the difference when you’re first starting, but no one tells each other that either.” Before Hayley started her journey at Origin Coffee in 2017, she’d been working as a barista at one of their wholesale clients, merely “making brown stuff come out of an espresso machine”. We both laugh at this analogy, but it’s humbling to admit to one another how much we know now compared to when we first started.
Origin Coffee is synonymous as a specialty coffee space and ensured the development and up-skilling of baristas that have become pioneers of our industry. Hayley recounts the pressure she felt as a female trainee behind a bar predominantly populated by males; as most of us women in coffee experience unfortunately. Hayley says that she often felt like a “small human”, as “there was a lot of pressure, and the ‘big’ boys behind the bar just weren’t ready for me”. Growing up with an older brother she knew what it was going to take, and told me she “needed to learn to make [herself] super hard, it was necessary at the time”. This was helpful for her while learning how to be the best behind that bar at that time. But as the years went on and she started taking on more responsibilities in the cafe and mentoring others, there was a shift in her leadership and she needed to “undo the hardcore” role she had taken on, because she didn’t want to become that type of manager. Having also previously worked with a lot of men in my workspace, we connected a lot on needing to assert ourselves, prove our worth and recognise challenges in the workplace that are often unequal based on gender.
“One of the most memorable experiences was being able to work with a women-owned and run spot on Long Street called ‘From Cape Town With Love’.
“In hindsight, thinking about it all now, I did enjoy the banter, and I'd take more of it, but I’d also let my coffee speak for itself. I think I had a chip on my shoulder about where my skills were. I thought I had a whole lot to prove; being green in the industry and a young, coloured, woman. I did love working with a lot of the guys. It was hard, but we did eventually get to a point of mutual respect. If I could do it again, I don’t think I’d fight as much as I did, even though it’s always been in my nature; I enjoy a good fight! But, even though it was hard and uncomfortable at times, some of those guys taught me all I know and I’m so appreciative of that. During those early years, I really didn't want the guys to know how underdeveloped my palate was. We don’t acknowledge where we’ve come from or where our palates are at, everybody just comes to the table and assumes they can already taste like an expert, but that’s not a reality. And it was a cafe filled with many greats, like Winston Thomas, who was our lead barista and at the time, the best in the country, and we used to talk about coffee and I just didn’t want to show how inexperienced I was. I would literally run away from cuppings. I didn’t want others to know that I couldn't taste the difference between each of the cups that were on the cupping table. Eventually someone noticed that I’d been ducking and diving, and it wasn't until Jorge Alberto, head roaster of Origin cornered me one day and told me; I shouldn't be running away from this, because this would be one thing that could seriously help me in my coffee life.”
“And the more I cupped, the better I got. There was one coffee that I tasted, an Ethiopian Yirgacheffe that Origin had in 2017, and this coffee was the coffee that changed it all for me, my lightbulb moment. It was the first time I could actually smell and taste the nuances. The amount of cupping that was being done meant I was tasting coffee all the time, and your palate just develops from having access to practice. I think if I had started my career within the commodity coffee sector, I would have worked my way into specialty, and maybe given myself a bit more grace.”
There are lots of other facets of the industry that Hayley had the opportunity to explore during her time at Origin.
“One of the most memorable experiences was being able to work with a women-owned and run spot on Long Street called ‘From Cape Town With Love’. As a customer of Origin, I was able to help them set up their business up and it was an opportunity to work with women in the industry and offer skills of mine which I’d developed, and see how to set up a small business from the ground up. That was something really special and invaluable. There were ways in which the cafe was run, with compassion and kindness that inspired me to think differently about where I wanted to be and the kind of teacher and coffee professional I wanted to become. And this inspired me to take more control and responsibilities with the academy at Origin. Even though the jobs were different, the learnings and experience gave me a chance to be full time at Origin looking after baristas, and to start to re-engage, becoming a different Hayley to how I first started.”
“Coffee for me has never been about the coffee, it's always been about the people”, Hayley says.
"Establishing good boundaries with baristas was something of importance, and came with more responsibilities. The guys used to call me a drill sergeant, but I wasn’t always like that when I worked behind the bar. It was nice to fill many roles at Origin. Especially when I took control of the academy and grew into the trainer I became. Running the Training Academy was exceptionally rewarding. Meeting all the different people who came for barista training for whatever reasons; it was cool having young fresh-out-of-school kids doing coffee courses before their yacht adventures, seeing some come through the academy who went on to work in some awesome retail clients and even behind our bar. Seeing their development was always gratifying.”
We started chatting about being women in the industry. Hayley often had to shift between being tough and hard during work, but also being someone others could come to with personal issues or problems. I think it’s a constant tug of war we face in coffee as women, but a positive one, because we’re able to be fluid in the way we adapt to different situations and roles. It is something powerful that we both recognised in our own careers and journeys through coffee, that we often needed to hone in on and remember. Within our industry there needs to be safe spaces for women and others to feel okay, wanted, accepted and needed, and I think Hayley fostered and created that within her academy and space at Origin. It was a space where baristas were allowed to be vulnerable, ask questions and grow in their own unique ways. Moving baristas up to higher levels of understanding, skill and knowledge has been an important outcome for all of us as barista trainers, specifically Hayley. As women, I think we’re both of the understanding that in our lives as trainers and coffee professionals and as women, we have managed to mould to different needs, spaces and roles when needed, something maybe men aren’t as akin to handling or executing.
Now, she’s in a totally different space and moulding herself into new crevices in the pursuit of mastering new skills. Working with the La Marzocco South Africa team has been a dream of sorts for many years. Hayley is experiencing a new arena of our industry where she’s throwing herself into learning all about the equipment side of coffee. “It feels like my brain has been stretched” and this is a marvellous thing!
“Coffee for me has never been about the coffee, it's always been about the people”, Hayley says chatting with Nyasha about the next round of coffee we’re about to get our hands on. With her new role she’s able to engage with a totally new tier of people; customers who’ve purchased machines who want to experience the excellence of the brand, take their espresso game to the next level and be truly immersed in a way of life that comes with an iconic Italian brand. Looking at career options within coffee, we’re always so accustomed to thinking that there’s only one space for us, and often that is being a barista. Hayley is an example that this does not have to be the case at all. We’re able to move and shift perspectives with the goals we want in our lives. Often that changes, and that’s also okay. We can accomplish new goals and have different dreams by shifting spaces. Hayley reminds me how well we need to know our craft to be the master of it, and the desire for her to know more about coffee has led to knowing more about the machines that produced it. She’s loving learning and experiencing an entirely new space, engaging with perhaps people she ordinarily wouldn't have and still being able to hold on to her training skills and having a relationship with customers, baristas and her fellow team ‘trainees’. Hayley still speaks about coffee all day everyday, it is still the centre of her world and it’s exciting and “so much fun.” She’s excited to grow with the brand, taste more coffee and continue having fun.
It’s fitting that we end off our chat after multiple cups of coffee and on the exciting new phase of her coffee career. She leaves me with some words of wisdom; “It’s important in life to have certain goals and dreams you’d like to reach, and also recognise that the pathway shouldn’t be so rigid, because sometimes that’s when you miss opportunities and experiences.” Just like the development of coffee processing where our conversation began; coffee has changed so much over time, taking different paths where parameters have been stretched, creating differences in taste and processing, and challenging ordinary standards and boundaries for the better.
